#12: Christopher Poulos is an attorney and the Executive Director of the Washington Statewide Reentry Council. Prior to his appointment, he served as Executive Director of Life of Purpose Treatment at the University of North Texas, where he was also an Adjunct Professor of Criminal Justice. During law school, he served at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy and The Sentencing Project. Poulos has advised United States Senator Angus King (I-Maine) on addiction and justice policy and served on several task forces related to criminal justice policy. He graduated cum laude from the University of Maine School of Law, where he was President of the American Constitution Society and represented children facing criminal charges as a student attorney in the Juvenile Justice Clinic. Prior to law school, Poulos overcame many obstacles, including tragic family losses, addiction, homelessness, and a federal incarceration. He now dedicates his life to helping others overcome or avoid similar challenges and he supports a public health-based approach to addiction. His work promotes equal access to the law and seeks to end mass incarceration and the collateral consequences now facing the tens of millions of people with criminal convictions.
#12: We are so excited to introduce Christopher Poulos as this week's incredible guest! Christopher is an attorney and the Executive Director of the Washington Statewide Reentry Council. Prior to his appointment, he served as Executive Director of Life of Purpose Treatment at the University of North Texas, where he was also an Adjunct Professor of Criminal Justice. During law school, he served at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy and The Sentencing Project. Poulos has advised United States Senator Angus King (I-Maine) on addiction and justice policy and served on several task forces related to criminal justice policy. He graduated cum laude from the University of Maine School of Law, where he was President of the American Constitution Society and represented children facing criminal charges as a student attorney in the Juvenile Justice Clinic.
Prior to law school, Poulos overcame many obstacles, including tragic family losses, addiction, homelessness, and a federal incarceration. He now dedicates his life to helping others overcome or avoid similar challenges and he supports a public health-based approach to addiction. His work promotes equal access to the law and seeks to end mass incarceration and the collateral consequences now facing the tens of millions of people with criminal convictions.
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Show Notes:
2:30 - Introducing Chris, some of his background and talking about the start of his recovery process
5:41 - The start of Chris's substance use
7:28 - Being diagnosed with ADHD + the childhood years and their impact through three traumatic losses
11:40 - The escalation of his substance abuse
12:58 - The events that led to being sentenced to federal prison
27:06 - What happened when he first got arrested and was facing five federal felony charges
33:56 - The start of the transformation
42:11 - Talking to the Dean of the law school
49:38 - The law school voting to let Chris in
52:45 - The connection that took him to the White House
1:05:40 - Closing thoughts
The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast would like to thank our sponsor, Lionrock Recovery, for their support. Lionrock Recovery is an online substance abuse counseling program where you can get help for drinking or drug use from the privacy of your own home. For more information, visit http://www.lionrockrecovery.com.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Hello beautiful people. Welcome to The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast. My name is Ashley Loeb Blassingame, and I am your host. Today we have Christopher Poulos, who is an attorney and the Executive Director of The Washington Statewide Reentry Council. Prior to his appointment, he served as the Executive Director of Life of Purpose Treatment at the University of North Texas, where he was also an Adjunct Professor of Criminal Justice. During law school, he served at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy and The Sentencing Project. Poulos has advised United States Senator Angus King, independent in Maine, on addiction and justice policy and served on several task forces related to criminal justice policy. He graduated cum laude from the University of Maine School of Law, where he was President of the American Constitution Society and represented children facing criminal charges as a student attorney in the Juvenile Justice Clinic.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Prior to law school, Poulos overcame many obstacles, including tragic family losses, addiction, homelessness, and a federal incarceration. He now dedicates his life to helping others overcome or avoid similar challenges, and he supports a public health-based approach to addiction. His work promotes equal access to the law and seeks to end mass incarceration, and the collateral consequences now facing the tens of millions of people with criminal convictions. Chris' story is absolutely amazing. Chris's story is absolutely amazing. It brought about a lot of good topics, and we are so excited to have him share and take time out of his busy schedule to come and talk with us. So please enjoy Christopher Poulos. Alright, Episode 12. Let's do this. Chris, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the program. I want to jump right in and get into your story. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Christopher Poulos:
Sure. My name is Chris Poulos, I'm 36 years old now. And interestingly enough, today actually marks 12 years since I drank alcohol or used a drug that I wasn't prescribed.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wow, congratulations. So would you call today your sobriety date?
Christopher Poulos:
Kind of.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Kind of? Okay, tell us more.
Christopher Poulos:
The reason I say kind of is because today is the day I really began my recovery process. For me it was not a single event. So On May 12, or 13th, I think 13th was the first day I woke up and actually didn't drink alcohol or take any drugs I was not prescribed. And I was still on different prescription medications, namely Adderall, and I found myself unable to take that medication as prescribed. And so what I choose to do is for me, I actually celebrate my anniversary of sobriety from the time when I stopped taking that medication, as well. But May 13 of 2007 was the day I stopped drinking alcohol, using opiates, snorting cocaine every day, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which was in and of itself, even with the Adderall, a huge, huge, huge change and milestone in my life.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Absolutely. So what was the date? What's the sobriety date that you celebrate the anniversary?
Christopher Poulos:
I go with January 1, 2009. And the reason I do that I was in prison in 2008, 2009, 2010. And I remember in the fall, sometime in the fall of 2009, I couldn't sleep and somebody gave me some kind of prescription sleep ai that wasn't mine. And that was only like a month or two after I stopped the Adderall anyway. You know what, I'm just going to go with January 1, 2009 because I'm sure that the last time I took any pill I wasn't prescribed or anything was toward the end of 2008. I actually smoked my last cigarette on New Year's Eve of 2009 too, so it's easy for me to remember that.
Christopher Poulos:
I started smoking cigarettes when I was literally a little kid. And I had my last road cigarette with a guy whose nickname was Carney because he worked in the carnival. He and I snuck outside of the prison unit and smoked one last hand rolled cigarette together to ring in the new year in prison. And since then I haven't had a cigarette and I haven't had any kind of drug that I haven't been prescribed with the exception of caffeine and sugar.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, well, congratulations on 12 years. It's huge, absolutely huge. Can you tell us, now we've gotten a glimpse into kind of where you came from, can you give us a little bit of background? How did you get to prison? How did things spiral out of control? Did you start off snorting coke every day?
Christopher Poulos:
No, I didn't. And although some people, their substance use accelerates really, really quickly, and actually mine did too, but it wasn't cocaine when I was still a pre-teen and a teen. So when I was about 13, or 14 years old, It actually started with prescription pills. So I was prescribed Ritalin, and then later, Adderall, as I already mentioned, and my friends and I would crush up and snort Ritalin and Adderall, smoke pot, drink alcohol, eventually not that long after got into different pills, including opiates. And what I found was that as soon as I had a substance in my system, whatever that was, it immediately provided me with relief from any kind of feelings of inadequacy, discomfort, anything like that, social awkwardness, all of that just melted away as soon as I got the substance in my system. I think that that's actually pretty natural.
Christopher Poulos:
So somebody goes to a bar, and they're feeling socially awkward, or they're just like, "I don't even know these people," or a cocktail party, as soon as someone gets a couple drinks in them that's it. It's just a natural social lubricant. The issue for me is that I used it to and took that to an extreme and didn't know how to turn it off at any point, and I also used it to treat unresolved trauma.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
So what were you prescribed the Ritalin for and what was your childhood like?
Christopher Poulos:
So first Ritalin, later Adderall, was for ADHD. I had trouble focusing. I still have an incredibly difficult time focusing. I've learned some different ways, non-medication ways to cope with it. My childhood was similar, I guess in a lot of ways to a lot of people. I had some advantages. My grandfather was actually my mom's stepdad, was an attorney, and he kind of took me under his wing on one hand, and then on the other hand, I didn't know my own father. So my mom was a single mom growing up. My birth dad still to my knowledge suffers from severe untreated mental illness and substance use disorder. And we've never been able to develop any kind of healthy relationship.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
So did you understand that that was what the issue was as a kid or did you just think that he didn't want to be around?
Christopher Poulos:
I didn't really understand it. I did meet him. I met him for the first time when I was 10. And we tried to have a relationship, but what I found and this is going like way into recovery, is I didn't realize this at the time, but he would constantly try to rehash with me as a 10 or 11 year old stuff that happened between my mom and him many years ago. And to the very last email I got from him when I was in prison it was the same thing. He was just completely a prisoner of his own resentments, regrets, anger. And this is again, jumping way forward. But something I've learned in recovery is that if I find myself trying to hold on to a relationship or hold on to an outcome that in anything that wasn't intended to me, I stop, and I think like, "Wait, that's exactly what my father is still trapped in. And I have the ability to leave that, to break that." And the substance use is, as we say, in certain fellowships, it's merely a symptom.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Absolutely.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah. We never were able to develop a healthy relationship. And the bottom line for me is really as soon as I found drugs or alcohol, everything else, every pain, challenge, awkwardness, it all melted away. And then what compounded it substantially was, when I was a high school senior, I was working as a commercial fishermen off the coast of Maine with my step dad, who's my little brother's dad, and his boat went missing at sea. And while the boat was missing at sea, I found out that one of my best friends got into a fistfight at a party. He got the better of the other kid, the other teenager, and the other kid lured him away from the party under the saying, "Let's go smoke a joint, put this behind us." And he lured My friend away and they were both drunk, 19, 20, maybe 21 year olds, and no one knew that the other young man had brought a kitchen knife from this party with him and took my friend's life.
Christopher Poulos:
And shortly after that, they found my step dad's body, my little brother's dad's body floating in the Atlantic Ocean, we think a tanker struck his boat down and didn't report it. And that was about two or three months after I held my grandfather in my arms as he died after a long battle with cancer. My step dad and my grandfather were my father figures in place of my own dad. So the reason I'd bring that up is because once all those things happen, my substance use immediately went from... I mean, it was already awful. And then after that, it became completely unmanageable. My mom didn't know much about addiction. I didn't know much about addiction. I thought I was simply bad. I was a criminal. I was a loser. I was a scumbag. I was an addict. That's how I identified myself.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, like in a proud way?
Christopher Poulos:
No, no, no.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No?
Christopher Poulos:
In a way filled with shame, actually. But it's how who I thought I was I didn't realize... I didn't have any idea that I had a condition that was treatable. I thought I was flawed. I was just inherently flawed. And if something's inherently flawed, then how can it be fixed? So until I realized years later, that I had a condition known as substance use disorder and it was my responsibility to seek help, and then accept help, it just progressed and progressed and progressed through homelessness, jail, institutions, and ultimately federal prison.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How did you get from... Can you take us from the point where these three really important men in your life pass to where you get to federal prison? What was the road there like?
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah, so when I was 18, all this happened when my mom didn't know how to deal with addiction, really. Either we didn't have the resources or even the knowledge. I mean, what would have been best would have been for me to get, like whether I liked it or not to get sent to treatment at that age. I was still a high school student. I was any day I could have died, given the decisions I was making in the level of my sickness. And so I would have if I had been whisked away to treatment, or even connected with somebody who is in recovery, maybe that would have helped. That never happened for me. So I found myself homeless as a teenager, and in Portland, Maine.
Christopher Poulos:
One story I'll share with that and this relates to the shame and the stigma and discrimination surrounding addiction and even homelessness, especially as a teenager. Is that I used to go to the local emergency room, and I would sit in the waiting room just trying to stay warm because its Maine in the middle of the winter, and I have no place to go. And what would happen is the nurse or nurses and often with a security guard next to them would eventually come up to me and tap me and wake me up if I was asleep, or just start talking to me and say, "What are you doing? Can we help you with something?" And I would say, "Oh, I'm just waiting for my mom, just waiting for my mom." And they would leave and then come back an hour later or so and say, "Yeah, what's your mom's name? Do you know what room she's in? Can we help you find her?" And I would say, "Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second." This is back when we had payphones everywhere.
Christopher Poulos:
I'd go to the payphone. I'd pretend to dial my mom's number. I wasn't really dialing anybody. And then I'd pretend to have a conversation like this. I'd say, "Oh, mom hello?" really loud so they could hear, and say, "Mom, oh, you're at the other hospital mom? I can't believe... Oh, I thought you were at this hospital. Okay, I'll be right over." And then I would make sure the nurses and the security guard see me and I'd say, "Oh, I'm so stupid. I'm at the wrong hospital. Okay, I'm gonna leave now. Thank you." And it was because I was too ashamed and scared to just say, "Hey, I'm a high school student. I'm 18 on the dot. So I'm technically an adult, but I'm still a senior in high school. And I don't have anywhere to sleep. I'm really sick. Can you help me?" I couldn't say that.
Christopher Poulos:
So what I did was I... Thank God for my grandmother, she took me in and then my mom would take me in to from time to time. But I never addressed the underlying issues. I sold pot as a teenager. And in my early 20s, I discovered cocaine. I also discovered very quickly that it's incredibly expensive. And so there was no way I could sustain a cocaine addiction unless you're a stock executive or something like that. I don't know how you could [inaudible 00:16:28] to something. So I started selling small amounts of cocaine to support my own habit. And within just months, not years, that grew to the level and through the people I was connected with more than me, myself. The federal government, took an interest in our activities.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Took an interest. I like it.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah. And that's how that began. Then in 2007, May 12, 2007 I actually got to a point, there were some external things happening, like we knew that the government was watching us and there could be serious charges. Of course, that had become normal, like court arrest, hand cuffs, they had become routine. I've learned now that it's not like normal... I shouldn't say normal people, I should say people that-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Don't have a problem.
Christopher Poulos:
... that don't have a problem. Aren't like, "Oh, I've got court Tuesday. I'd love to join you, but I've got court again." No, it's like [inaudible 00:17:43] got a haircut on Tuesday. [crosstalk 00:17:46] too. Let's do it at three. [inaudible 00:17:48] say that for a court or like "Oh, no, I got to go turn myself in for a couple of days."
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I'll see you in a week. Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah. And that became routine, which is so unnatural for human to have court and incarceration become routine. Anyhow, I got to a point where when I was 24, the substances could no longer provide the relief. Really, there was one pivotal moment. I accidentally discharged a firearm in my apartment while I was intoxicated. Thank God no one was hurt, it was a could have been a terrible situation. I could have killed a neighbor, something like that. And about a week after that happened, the neighbors and the police connected the dots that it was a gunshot that had gone through my ceiling. And they were searching my house, it was actually Easter, I think. But it was sometime in the spring of... Yeah, it was the Easter, Easter Sunday in the spring of 2007.
Christopher Poulos:
I showed up at my house and they told me at my apartment, they said I couldn't go in. And I didn't know what to do except do what I knew what to do. I called one lawyer he didn't answer. So I gave up and I went down to the local bar and started drinking rum. And I drank glass after glass of rum with just the tiniest hint of soda on top and I probably had eight pint glasses of rum, which normally I would be, even with the tolerance I had, you're going to be drunk after that much alcohol, and I didn't feel a thing. I didn't feel a thing. I think anybody, it doesn't matter if you have a substance use disorder, recovery, whatever. Anytime we do something really bad that we feel really bad about as humans, particularly if we get caught, we get that terrible knock in our stomachs. That's just a natural human thing.
Christopher Poulos:
My way of relief from that was not like rectifying the situation, or anything, or making amends. It was simply pouring drugs and alcohol down my throat or up my nose or into my veins. And that day, it didn't work. And that's when everything began to shift for me. That would must have been... Easter's in April, right? So yeah, I tried it for a couple more weeks, tried to get high, tried to get drunk, and nothing major came. I had a couple more misdemeanor charges out of the gun going off, but nothing major came a bit but that was the point where I realized I needed to either die or seek help, professional help. And I went to my doctor, psychiatrist who normally I would go in and just give this normal song and dance for all the different pills I was prescribed. I was on just like a smorgasbord of psychotropic meds at that point plus heroin, plus cocaine, plus alcohol every single day.
Christopher Poulos:
I would normally manage to get myself together enough just to be like, "Yeah, yeah, things are going well, just taking another semester off college. Please refill my prescription." I had a moment of willingness and I just told the doctor most of the truth, for the first time in my life, I said, "I'm addicted to opiates, I'm addicted to cocaine, alcohol, and I don't think I can stop." And he said, and this is another thing about the pride, I guess, and shame. He said, "When's the last time you used alcohol or drugs?" And for some reason I said to him, I said, "I looked all [inaudible 00:21:58]. It's been two weeks," and perked up, and I was so proud of that. And he said, "Okay, so that means you don't need detox or inpatient. We can just start you in intensive outpatient."
Christopher Poulos:
I realized I was probably still high or at least I shouldn't say high because I was no longer feeling the effects but I probably used substances that very day. And I could have right then just been like, "Doctor, you know what, I wanted to hold on to some shred of pride. I actually think detox would be a good idea. And I actually have been..." He would have just been like, "Okay, fine, good. Thank you." But to me, I could not admit that. And so what happened was he did not order detox. He did not send me to inpatient. And my mom, God bless her, same mom that kicked me out when I was 18 years old. I'm now 24. She welcomed me home and we put a mattress on the floor of an empty bedroom in the family home. And for about three days straight I went through the process of having alcohol, benzos, opiate, and cocaine all leave my system simultaneously.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That is incredibly dangerous.
Christopher Poulos:
It was awful. I was hallucinating, I won't share all the physical effects. If people are interested, they can Google it. But I do remember something that's not that gross, but every few hours, I remember having to change the sheets just because they were drenched with sweat, and then flip the mattress over and remake the bed. And I remember hallucinating. I can say that through treatment, through a 12 step program, and through God's grace, I have not had to have that experience again since then. And that began my journey. So that's how it all started in recovery. It was May 2007. If my math is right that's 12 years, right?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yep. That's right. That's right. That's right. So did you go to prison sober? Or did you go to prison after that point in time, like, wanting to be in recovery?
Christopher Poulos:
I did. So what happened was the beauty of the federal government is that they often do long term, multiple year investigations. Whereas often in the state, usually or local county, it's like you get pulled over, right? They find some drugs, you're going to jail that day. It doesn't really work that way with an FBI and DEA investigation, and that's what I was subject to. I didn't fully know about, I don't know, eight months, maybe 10 months, a few months into my sobriety, I had gotten a job. Again, I was still struggling with the Adderall, but to me, that's like someone having an [inaudible 00:25:03] rather than main lining heroin is pretty good progress.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That's definitely amazing progress.
Christopher Poulos:
So I got a job. I was in the process of getting back into college. And I was living at my mom's, she took me back in now that I was healthy. I got a private phone call, and the guy said... God, I don't even remember his name now. Let's just say Mike, because I can't remember the guys name right now.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay.
Christopher Poulos:
So I get a private phone call and I'm always antsy about answering... I mean, even to this day, it's like, what are they selling? Is it somebody selling something, or someone who I don't want to talk to? So the guy goes, "It's Matt," that was his name. He goes, "Hey, man, it's me, Matt." And I said, "Matt, who? Who is this?" He goes, "Chris, come on, man. It's Matt, what's going on? How you doing? I haven't seen you in a while." And I said, "Look,..." I was feeling a little anxious, like who is this guy? I said, "Tell me who this is or I'm hanging up the phone." And he goes, "Mr. Poulos, this is special agent Matt Wallbridge, FBI, Boston. Why don't you take a look outside your window, and then come on out," just like that.
Christopher Poulos:
And I'm at my mom's house. My little brother's playing with his friend, at this point they're hiding. My mom is home downstairs, and I opened the shades and the home is surrounded by federal agents.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
This is eight months into your sobriety, your recovery?
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah, they knew it too. They were still watching. They knew that I had made some positive changes. And they brought me straight to the... It's really interesting. The federal government, they don't bring you to jail first. You go right to court, like you're eating your oatmeal and then next thing you know, you're in front of a federal judge, and they're reading off the indictment to you and I was indicted on five federal charges for cocaine trafficking, cocaine distribution, and possession of a firearm.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wow. So then you go to federal prison, where did you go? What prison did you go to? What state were you in? Maine?
Christopher Poulos:
I started in Maine, and I think a really important story that relates to why I do the work that I do now is what happened when I first got arrested. So what happened when I first got arrested, I'm facing five federal felony charges, and I didn't have any money. I mean, I wasn't a big drug dealer by any stretch. I wasn't nickel and dime, like tiny, tiny, get two bags use one sell one. I was somewhere in the middle but it was not any kind of a glamorous, wealthy lifestyle. So I had zero money to hire an attorney and I got a court appointed attorney and this is not to criticize all court appointed attorneys. I know A lot of them and they do amazing work many of them.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And you're an attorney now?
Christopher Poulos:
I am an attorney now.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
But my experience with my court appointed attorney was just awful.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What was awful about it?
Christopher Poulos:
I got on the phone with him right after I'd been arrested, and do you know the first thing someone asks if they've just gotten arrested or just gotten to jail? What's the first thing they're interested in?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Their phone call?
Christopher Poulos:
Okay, but I'm already on the phone. What's the [inaudible 00:28:30] thing do they want?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. Bail?
Christopher Poulos:
Exactly. Yeah. I love it when people get that.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah, it's not like you're not thinking about trial. You're not thinking about-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, phone calls and bail.
Christopher Poulos:
[crosstalk 00:28:44] thinking about what the charges are. You're thinking how the hell do I get out of this place? Bail. Exactly, you win. And so that's what I was thinking. And I said to him, "Can we get me out of here?" And he said, "Actually, this is a federal drug and gun trafficking case, the chances of you getting bail are slim to none." And he said, "The federal government probably wouldn't even have arrested you unless they had a strong case. So you might as well get the clock ticking on your sentence now." I think he said something along those lines, and he made me feel hopeless, completely hopeless. And I realized that he was not willing. Everything he said was probably accurate from his position and from his level of influence. That's probably accurate, everything he told me, but what he wasn't willing to do, he wasn't even willing to put up a fight.
Christopher Poulos:
He wasn't willing to vigorously represent me as a client. He felt like one more cog in the machine towards incarceration. It's like, the prosecutor says, "Nine years," he says, "Three years," and they shake hands and say six. "Okay, next." Like, what's our justice system,-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
100%.
Christopher Poulos:
... the legal system? I stopped calling it justice system for the time being. I think we aspire to have a justice system. After that phone call, I thought, I don't have a lawyer. I do not have an attorney. I need to get one. And so I called family, I called friends, and I was able to retain private counsel. I don't even know what they had for dinner in jail that night, because within hours I was released. As soon as I was able to pay tens of thousands of dollars to hire private counsel, he called up the US Attorney, the prosecutor, he said, "Look, this guy is in recovery from addiction already. We can verify that he's been in outpatient treatment. He's got very strong ties to the community. He's got a job right now. In the community, he's not a flight risk because he doesn't have any assets, any money. It's a non violent first time offense that he's accused of, why not let him out, let him keep saving up money, keep working on his recovery. And then if he has to go to prison, he will." And immediately the US attorney said, "Sure, fine, we don't even need a hearing."
Christopher Poulos:
So when I left jail that day, and I wouldn't have even noticed this had I not already had some recovery under my belt, I normally would have just gone out and then right back into whatever I was doing, probably within minutes, and this time, I looked back at all the other folks that I was locked up in the county jail with and thought I did just as bad if not worse than they did. Mostly brown, black and lower income white people in there. And I felt terribly guilty that I was going home purely because of the privilege, the economic privilege that I happen to have on that day. And it was that moment that I vowed to become an attorney when I left jail. I ended up going to prison, I went to prison in first county jail in Maine, New Hampshire, federal prison in Brooklyn, New York for a while, Lewisburg federal penitentiary in Pennsylvania, and finally the Lewisburg federal prison camp, which is where I did most of my time.
Christopher Poulos:
I had to do almost three years, which would have been 10 if I didn't have the attorney that I did. I'd just now be getting back on my feet after prison. Imagine now what awaits, right? I mean, everything I've done over the last seven years, none of it would have happened. I would have just been warehouse. And I still did almost three years, between two and a half and three years. And during that time, I had to decide am I going to say screw it and revert back to my old lifestyle, or am I going to stick with it? And thank goodness for working a 12 step program before actually going to prison because I was attracted for the first time in my life to people who are doing positive things in the present. So in any peer group, it could be coworkers, it could be jail, it could be Yale, there's going to be people doing positive things and people doing negative things. And sometimes people go in between those two groups.
Christopher Poulos:
I was attracted to a group of guys, some older white guys, mostly older black guys, who had spent their time in prison often decades, learning how to take care of their mind, their bodies and their souls like they are temples. And that was something I had never been exposed to, or at least not interested in before. And so I started to really, really transform. One thing I can give jail and prison for credit is they got me off the Adderall, finally, because I was still holding on to that Adderall. I could not tie my shoes without Adderall. Or I couldn't read one page in like a James Patterson novel without Adderall. I was sitting in a jail cell, and I thought, "If not now, then when? Like if I'm not going to finally get off amphetamines entirely, then when? I've been on this stuff since I was 12."
Christopher Poulos:
And so, I tried it. I tried it and eventually I could read a couple of sentences, right? And then eventually, I could read a page. Then I could read a James Patterson novel in a few days. And eventually I could go to college, Law School and pass the bar exam without Adderall. So it was a process that took a decade.
Peter Loeb:
Hi, I'm Peter Loeb, CEO and co-founder of Lionrock recovery. We're proud to sponsor the courage to change and I hope you find that it's an inspiration. I was inspired to start Lionrock after my sister lost her own struggle with drugs and alcohol back in 2010. Because we provide care online by live video, Lionrock clients can get help from the privacy of home. We offer flexible schedules that fit our clients' busy lives. And of course, we're licensed and accredited and we accept most private health insurance. You can find out more about us at lionrockrecovery.com or call us for a free consultation. No commitment at 800-258-6550. Thank you.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, you went to law school with a friend of mine who I absolutely adore and who speaks so highly of you. Shout out to Joe. He's just wonderful and he said to me, "Oh, Ashley, you have to know this guy, Chris." I'm super grateful for that. So you went to law school, how did you explain to law school? What was the process like? The reason I asked this, I have a lot of friends who have records and get their life together and then they want to become nurses, doctors, lawyers, they want to be a professional and they must seek licensure from a professional board. And so often, I've seen people say, "I can't get a real estate license, I can't get a nursing license because I have a felony."
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
One of my best friends, she went through a really intense dental hygiene program with no guarantee, they would not guarantee despite being sober for over 15 years being married to a district attorney, they would not guarantee that they would give her a license even if she passed the board and paid for school and did all this. She did eventually get it. But I would love for you to speak to that because I know that in recovery people do struggle with this.
Christopher Poulos:
Yes. So first, I was fortunate to be able to take in some college classes before I was arrested. I was already admitted to the University of Southern Maine, so I didn't have to go through any kind of character or disclose any record with them. So that was the first step, was just undergrad because they often ask about that stuff.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, and you were already in so it wasn't...
Christopher Poulos:
I was already in. I just said, "Yeah, I'm resuming my studies." I didn't have to bring it up. I found that sometimes full disclosure is necessary, like you have to, and other times if it doesn't ask we don't have any obligation as people in recovery to go into our deepest, darkest history, or our health issues, which I can consider a substance use disorder to be a health condition that's treatable. So thankfully, I got into college and while I was there, I was interning with the undergraduate student Legal Services Office for an awesome attorney named Susan Hopkins, who I'm still close with to this day. And next to Susan's office was the office of a man named Raisa Jalali, who's from Iran. I didn't know at the time, but he was a political prisoner. He's done time as a political prisoner in Iran, and he fled to escape the regime and stayed in Europe for a long time or some time. And then finally, he landed in Maine, of all places.
Christopher Poulos:
And so, for some reason, I knew my mom knew him because my mom did a lot of advocacy work around refugees. And Portland, Maine is a refugee resettlement center. So actually, that's probably why Raisa ended up there in my hometown. And you wouldn't believe it, but just Portland High School has over 100 different languages that are spoken. In a school in Maine.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wow, no, I didn't know that.
Christopher Poulos:
So I felt drawn to Raisa, like magnetically drawn to Raisa, and his office was right next to mine. One day I asked him if I could talk with him, and he said, "Sure," and the doors opened and I said, "Can we shut the door?" And he's like, "Yeah, okay." I mean, like shutting the door, kind of trying to close the shades. And then I whispered to him, "I used to have a problem with drugs. I was addicted to drugs and alcohol." And then he's like, "Okay," and I said, "And I've actually been arrested, and I've gone to jail, and I've been to prison," and he's like, "Okay." And I said, "Now I want to go to law school. I'm in recovery, and want to go to law school." And I was still whispering.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
And he said, "That's wonderful. I'm friends with the Dean of the Law School, I'm colleagues with the Dean, whatever."
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
So this was a point where I was still trapped in the shame. And I thought that if you weren't in a 12 step meeting, that you couldn't talk to anyone or anything about addiction recovery, you have to just keep it private. And I had actually had some people tell me too like, "Don't talk about the fact that you've been in prison unless you absolutely have to. You're going to screw your career over". Because mine wasn't highly publicized, I wasn't on the front of a bunch of newspapers and stuff. If someone dug a little it would be really easy.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
So fine, but it wasn't so obvious. Anyway, I whispered that to Raisa, and a couple weeks later, he agreed to enter introduced me to the law school dean. I remember trying to get together the best suit that I had. I'm still relatively fresh out of prison here. Like, still pretty early recovery. I don't think I had like the best looking outfit, but I remember these things. It was so important for me.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher Poulos:
To look sharp. I did my best and we got there and we met the dean. It's on the top floor, or one of the top floors of the law school and there's this beautiful view of the bay, Casco Bay over the ocean in Portland, Maine. And we sit down and start talking. I had not really ever been in any kind of office like this before. And that's so important, like for me now it's routine for me to be in high ranking officials' offices. I was just wasn't in those spaces, like to meet a dean of anything, let alone a law school dean. And so here I was, and he said something along the lines of, "Raisa..." And Raisa came too. He wanted to be there. He said, "I think this is going to be part of history. Can I come [00:42:06] the dean?"
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, I love it.
Christopher Poulos:
And I said, "Yeah, of course you can come." And so we're talking with the dean and he said, "Chris, Raisa tells me you have a really interesting story. And you could bring a unique perspective and some diversity to our law school. Could you tell me a little bit about that?" And that's all that he knew going in, the dean. And so I said, "Yeah," I said, "My mom was a single mom," I kind of went through a little bit of the story that we started with. I said, "I was homeless for a little while," and he's like nodding along to this like, "Okay, okay." And then I told him I had issues with alcohol and drug addiction, but I was in recovery, as soon as I said that, he was like, "Okay," a little less enthusiastic. And then once I told him that I knew I would have to disclose eventually on the law school application, when I told him I'd done a multiple year federal prison sentence, I guess that wasn't the diversity he anticipated that I would bring to the school.
Christopher Poulos:
I think he thought I was going to say like, "I was in the Peace Corps, got malaria and was taken in by a local tribe, help them with their epidemic for a couple of years or something." I don't know. That's like a typical law school story.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Christopher Poulos:
It's the elite that go to law school. Anyhow, that concern him a lot and he started to suggest other career ideas in that meeting. He said, "Couldn't you work in some kind of... Maybe you could be a drug treatment specialist or you could be a social worker or a counselor or something. Is there something else that would be more suitable for you and for someone with your background because I don't really think that the legal community, they may not embrace you." Just put it that way. I was really crushed because this was something I had dreamt up before... I mean, it started actually with my grandfather, my mom's stepdad, who was an attorney reading his cases as a little kid in the basement of their house. But then I was unable to pursue that for many years due to my sickness.
Christopher Poulos:
Anyway, this was a dream that was born as a little kid, it was brought back to life in a cell. And here I am being told, he didn't categorically say no, but it was not very positive. It was really like, that's nice but I don't really know this is for you. So what I did was, I think probably for the first time in my life, I stood up for myself in an assertive and respectful manner. And I said, I chose my words very carefully, I said, "Dean, why didn't the judge give me a life sentence in prison?" And he was surprised by my question. He said, "I'm not sure. Maybe it was you're criminal record or the conduct." And he said, "I don't know." And so I said, "Then Dean, why are you giving me a life sentence here today?"
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wow, mic drop.
Christopher Poulos:
When I said that, and it was a little bit more of a conversation and just like that, that's what I said. We talked about that, the idea of redemption and the legal system. Isn't the idea of the legal system here that you have a sentence and then once you've paid your debt, you're supposed to be whole and society is supposed to be whole as a result of the sentence, the fines, the probation, the fees, everything. When that's all done, shouldn't it be done? So when I said that about the life sentence to him, I could see... When I disclose the federal conviction and prison sentence, it was like a wall was built between us. Immediately it went like, could might as well have been on the other side of the Earth from him. And it's how I felt.
Christopher Poulos:
When we had that conversation about the life sentence and redemption and the purpose of the legal system, a couple bricks fell off the top of the wall. We didn't like hug, and he was like, let's get you in here. It was a slight shift within him. I could see it happen. I think he was thinking internally, "Holy crap. Did he really just [crosstalk 00:46:50] the whole purpose of our legal system in the country?"
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Absolutely.
Christopher Poulos:
"And who am I to tell this young man that he's doomed basically with his goals?" So months went on, I did apply. I'll tell you, they say in recovery resentments are awful.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
The number one offender.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what, that resentment got me into law school-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, I believe it.
Christopher Poulos:
... because I held on to that. I think resentments if we let them consume us and destroy us rather than fuel us, then yeah, they're bad. But what happened was, whatever fire within me, I went in. At first, I was incredibly discouraged. When I left, I was really discouraged. But then I thought, you know what, I've been through more than this. And with that fire within me that I kind of learned from transforming while I was in prison, it was like out of control. It was burning. I had never gotten an A in a class before. I got my first A in a college Spanish class. It was really cool. It was this older, wonderful Colombian woman who taught us this intensive college Spanish class. And during our exam, she would bring us little candies, little Hershey's and stuff during our exam.
Christopher Poulos:
And of course, I had taught myself Spanish while I was in prison. I worked as a teacher and tutor to people from the Dominican Republic, Colombia, Puerto Rico, and Vietnam. And so I learned a little Spanish, I didn't have the grammar and everything. I had a head start on a college Spanish class. So anyway, I got an A. I had never gotten an A before. And this was right after that meeting with the dean. And I thought, "Oh my goodness, it's okay for me to excel. It's okay for me to do well, I can do well, I don't have to just survive, I can thrive." And after I got that A, I never got anything less ever again. So I had a 4.0 every semester for the rest of my college career and then I went back to the law school with my application, and with a solid LSAT score. And we could get into a whole conversation about standardized test and how that furthers inequality.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, yeah. Oh, my Gosh.
Christopher Poulos:
I was able to thankfully have the time to take an LSAT course and I did pretty well on it, above the average for the law school. The admissions committee had quite the discussion, investigation and debate, but they ultimately voted unanimously in my favor.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I love it.
Christopher Poulos:
And guess who was on that admissions committee?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Raisan?
Christopher Poulos:
The dean.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Well, yes, of course. The dean. Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah. And so he came around in other words.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. Yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
There may have been some friendly arm twisting and encouragement in colleagues and other folks but he came around. And on my first day of law school, I remember my grandmother who I told you took me in during high school was just with me through all of the thick and thin. I remember she waved me off just with tears streaming down her face for my first day of law school.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, I can't even imagine.
Christopher Poulos:
She visited me in jails, prisons, hospitals, mental institutions.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I can't even imagine. How wonderful.
Christopher Poulos:
And then she's waving me off to my first day as a [inaudible 00:50:33]. And I got to the law school and the first person I saw was the dean. And to his credit, went right up to me, put his hand out, gave me a firm handshake, smiled and said, "Welcome. You're part of this community now. You're welcome here and you belong here."
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, I have chills. That's just absolutely amazing. And then how Long... You worked your way to the White House. So tell us a little bit about that. And you have a book coming out as well, right?
Christopher Poulos:
Maybe someday.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Maybe someday. Okay.
Christopher Poulos:
I've been working on this book for a long time. I don't know why I won't just do it, but something I'm working through. So during my second year of law school, I was still largely private. Only my close friends knew about the details of my past and a couple of law students, maybe a couple of professors that I chose to confide in, but I wasn't raising my hand in class saying anything about my own experiences. And part of that was, again, the shame. Part of it was protecting my own career. I was told to protect my own career by being private. And part of it, which I think is a better reason was I wanted to be recognized as a leader at the law school and as a good student based on my merit, not based on my story. And I think that that's... While I love when people are hired, who have been hired for jobs like policy work, the worst thing we can do is hire someone just because they've been incarcerated or they're in recovery if it's not a match.
Christopher Poulos:
So I wanted to establish myself not based on my story, but based on my ability just like any other person, and I did, I became President of the American Constitution Society at the law school. I was on the Dean's list, all of that before I ever "came out". And one day, I had the opportunity to go to City Hall and work on this task force for the mayor of Portland, Maine, around addiction. This addiction task force for the City of Portland, and even then all they knew was like I had some stuff that I'd overcome and I was interested in addiction recovery and I was a law student. That's it. And the guest of the day was a guy named Michael Botticelli from the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, who was the director of drug policy for President Obama.
Christopher Poulos:
And he gets in to our meeting, and he says, "Yeah, I'm Michael Botticelli, I'm in person in long term recovery from addiction, but also been arrested, been to jail, and I'm a gay married man." And I thought, "He doesn't know he's not at a meeting?" [00:53:40].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Someone tell him.
Christopher Poulos:
Yeah, what's he doing? Breaking his anonymity and talking about this stuff, Jesus. I thought that was going to ruin our careers. And I said, "Geez, he seems to be doing okay" So Director of National Drug Control Policy for the United States of America, and openly in recovery, openly gay married man in recovery, been arrested. He didn't do any time. But nonetheless, he's felt what handcuffs feel like at least. Anyhow, that moment, that day completely changed my life and it redirected me from wanting to practice law, like in the courtrooms in the trenches every day to wanting to work on policy because I just immediately thought, "Yes, we need people getting Joe out of jail on Tuesday. Absolutely. But maybe that's not the role that I'm intended for, at least not right now. Maybe I can work on things that will impact 100,000 Joes in one signing of the signature."
Christopher Poulos:
So I actually wanted to talk to him, but I didn't want the mayor and the police chief, and everybody, I didn't want to like raise my hand in this public forum. I wasn't ready to talk about all that yet. So what I did was, toward the end of the meeting, I excused myself and I went back. I was like reverting, and this is the thing, we can use our old behaviors for positive. So I was thinking like, "How am I going to get to this guy? How am I going to find him?" I thought, "What if this guy owed me money? How would I find him? Well, maybe I'd figure out what kind of car he drives and then just position myself between where I knew he currently was and where his vehicle was, therefore, he has to cross by the path like if he owed me money, that's a way to do it. Sit on the hood of his car until he has to go somewhere."
Christopher Poulos:
So I leave City Hall, of course, I didn't have any nefarious thoughts this time. This was more positive. And I see a black suburban with tinted windows and two guys with dark glasses and suits looking around. I thought, "Yeah, this is this guy's car of course." This is Portland, Maine, we don't... I mean anywhere, it's a good indication that it's a government official or somebody. So I'd like stood around by the City Hall looking at the statues and tulips just kind of loitering. And sure enough, he came out. And I said, "Director Botticelli, hey, it's Chris." I'm like 20 feet away. "I was just in the meeting," or I said, "Do you have a moment?" And he's like trying to register who I am and he's got Secret Service guys with him.
Christopher Poulos:
And he's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. You were in that meeting, right? Yeah, sure. Come on up." And so I cautiously approached him, and I said, "Director Botticelli, what you said in there changed my life. You being open about your recovery. I didn't know we could even do that." And I told him, "When President Obama was elected as President, I was sitting in federal prison watching that night. And now, I'm in recovery, I'm in law school, and I'd love to come to Washington." And that's all I said, I didn't know what I was asking for. And that began the process, which took about a year for me to eventually get national security position clearance to serve as a law student intern at the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That is amazing. That is amazing. And where did that take you today? I know that you're working on reentry policy now and that you're no longer in Washington. What does your life look like today?
Christopher Poulos:
So I'm in the other Washington now, Washington State. I went and I finished law school, had a hell of a time getting admitted to the bar because of my record. And that's another thing where I think that could have been handled a lot more efficiently and with less pain for everybody involved, frankly, particularly me. Anyhow, that way, we could spend an hour on that discussion. But it was pretty terrible. In some ways it was worse than... When I got arrested for the drugs and stuff like that, it was like, "Yeah, this sucks, but I did it." You know what I mean?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
[inaudible 00:58:14] the deal, whereas for the bar admission, it was just absolutely... They have a criminal prosecutor in Maine that just eviscerate your character, if you have any question of whether you're fit and you have to sit there. I was cross examined for I think six or seven hours all together.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, my gosh.
Christopher Poulos:
At least four hours, maybe it was longer. So I eventually did get admitted to the main bar, but I didn't see any policy opportunities in Maine for me. I applied for some in Washington and New York, but a lot of these criminal justice reform organizations and... Recovery advocacy is pretty good at hiring directly impacted people. Criminal justice reform, not so much it's almost, almost exclusively academics with just a purely academic background. So if you're number one in your class from NYU, and you've wrote an amazing paper on bail, like you're in, but if you graduated with honors from a regular law school, and you've been in prison for five years, and you have that lived experience like, sorry. Anyway, a friend of mine was the owner of treatment centers, Life of Purpose treatment, which combines higher education with treatment.
Christopher Poulos:
So I started in Texas, directing an addiction... Straight out of law school, I went to being director of an addiction treatment center and Professor of criminal justice at the University of North Texas. Teaching all future Texas law enforcement my thoughts on-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, man, I love it.
Christopher Poulos:
... criminal Justice, and they let me. I told them, "These are my views." They're like, "Go for it. We want these young people to get exposed to something different." So kudos to the University of North Texas for not being like, yeah, this is [crosstalk 01:00:08].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, yeah.
Christopher Poulos:
And so I went in, and I questioned the drug war, and I questioned our policies of trying to arrest our way out of a situation that's largely needs to be addressed with a demand reduction approach, like getting people prevention treatment recovery, rather than just trying to build bigger walls and build more prisons, which has not only been ineffective, utterly ineffective, it's been harmful. So anyway, I did that for a year and then I got the opportunity to serve as an appointee in Washington State as the Executive Director of the Statewide Reentry Council. So now we advise the State Senate and House the legislature and the governor's office on issues related to reentry after incarceration and go around the state, as well as the country to push for more investment in things that actually work to address addiction and to promote successful reentry into society after incarceration.
Christopher Poulos:
And I have a home now, I have my own house, which is a big part of having a home, having a partner. I have a puppy, a little German Shepherd puppy.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Oh, so cute.
Christopher Poulos:
I spend my time with my partner if I'm not working. I spend my time with my partner, with my puppy climbing mountains. That's kind of what I've been doing lately. When I was early in recovery, it was really about going to a lot of meetings for me, and now I found some sober people who climb mountains together. And that's what's really engaging me right now to help me stay on a positive path. I always need something new and challenging and I think that that's usually good.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, absolutely. I completely relate to that. I need a new challenge. I need a new thing. I know that you raise money for recovery and with your mountain climbing, is there a website that people can support you in that endeavor?
Christopher Poulos:
There is. So if someone Google's climbing for recovery, it should pop right up. My fundraiser for Mount Rainier is still active. And having some trouble with my heels right now from a 18 mile journey I did yesterday. But as long as my heels heal, then I'll be actually climbing Mount Rainier this coming weekend. But the fundraiser is ongoing either way. And climbing for recovery, Christopher Poulos, the organization is called Recovery Beyond. And what it does is it takes people who are brand new to recovery and provides the normal stuff or connects resources for the normal stuff like how [inaudible 01:03:17] treatment, et cetera, basic needs. But it also introduces participants to the outdoors, and the fellowship and camaraderie and team building and independence that can come from that.
Christopher Poulos:
And after one year, in the program, the clients, the participants actually do a Mount Rainier climb themselves. So the same thing we're doing kind of as the fundraisers, the actual participants who are coming out of homelessness, and this is specifically for folks that don't have the resources to go to an expensive treatment center and all that. It's a different route in it, but it centers the mountains.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I love that. That's so beautiful. You have such a wonderful story of not giving up. I mean, yes, there were definitely places where things were on your side. But I think that your desire to not be stopped by those barriers is really what makes your life such a success story. I'm so grateful to you for sharing that with us, and I know that your story is helping people and going to continue to help people because it was funny when you said we don't have a justice system, we have a legal system and I thought no, we have a penal code.
Christopher Poulos:
[inaudible 01:04:44].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, yeah, we have a penal code where-
Christopher Poulos:
A punishment system.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
A punishment system and it doesn't allow for people to be... When we talk about rehabilitation in the penitentiary, it blows my mind that we even say it like it's a joke. And it's so important and I have seen so many lives changed by it. So I'm so grateful that there's someone who's been through it, who is in there talking to people about what the experience is really like. I see that in a lot of professional places, even with insurance companies making decisions about how long people get treatment, or what kind of treatment they get, et cetera. They have no true experience with substance use disorder in the sense of experience or family or personal experience and it makes such a difference. So thank you for being part of that and not letting that stop you and for coming out and sharing your story today.
Christopher Poulos:
You're welcome. Thank you. And I think the one thing I would add is that the number one ingredient to my success, perseverance has been part of it, but the most important thing was becoming willing to listen to other people and becoming willing to ask for help. To ask people who have successfully completed things that I wanted to do, ask them how they did it and ask them if they would show me.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
So find people that have what you want, ask them for help and ask them to show you how they did it.
Christopher Poulos:
They [inaudible 01:06:16] be willing to accept it. And whether it's how to stop drinking alcohol, using drugs, or how to do something that you want to do. That's it. I guess I'm relatively bright, but it's been being willing to listen and then sticking to it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate it and we are looking forward to seeing what you do next.
Christopher Poulos:
Thank you. Take care. Bye.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast would like to thank our sponsor Lionrock Recovery for their support. Lionrock Recovery provides online substances counseling, where you can get help from the privacy of your own home. For more information, visit www.lionrockrecovery.com/podcast. Subscribe and join our podcast community to hear amazing stories of courage and transformation. We are so grateful to our listeners and hope that you will engage with us. Please email us comments, questions, anything you want to share with us, how this podcast has affected you. Our email address is podcast@lionrockrecovery.com. We want to hear from you.